Actually, this is more a solicitation of other peoples' views than my usual opinionated ramblings. I've found myself facing a question that has me somewhat stumped, and I wouldn't mind some friendly input.
I'm fairly certain that some of what I'm going to discuss/ask is going to be a bit controversial (especially given some of the comments on yesterday's post), so I'd like to specifically request that all comments be kept friendly and courteous, with no attacks on my (or anyone else's) personal morals or character--and preferably no suggestions that I am anything other than a devoted husband.
Now that I've got everyone properly worried and/or intrigued...
I'm a gay man who's married to a woman (cue expressions of shock and surprise). That's not the easiest situation to be in, but in all Sarah and I are happy together, and we both feel like we're doing a pretty good job of keeping each other happy and keeping our marriage strong. I really do love her very much, and there are many, many things that I love about being married to her, and in many ways I would find it difficult to live without her.
But... I really like guys. I don't just mean that I think that guys are attractive (though I do) and sexy (that, too). I mean that, given a chance, I think that I could really fall in love with a guy, and that in many ways I relate better and am more compatible emotionally with guys. This is old news to most/all of you, but I'm stating it anyway to emphasize the fact that there are certain aspects of a typical married relationship that are lacking in my relationship with Sarah, and that as much as I love her and love being married to her, I do notice that lack.
I can already hear some of the comments: "Big deal--no marriage is perfect, and every relationship has its flaws." These comments typically come from straight people, and occasionally from recently-married gay people (with straight spouses), and to those who believe that a difference in orientation is comparable to other issues that a married couple might face I suggest that you spend some time reading the blogs of those who have been in a mixed-orientation marriage for many years, and then spend many years yourself married to someone of gender opposite the one you are attracted to, and then come back and tell me how inconsequential the difference is.
But I digress...
There are voids in my relationship with Sarah that I would like to fill if possible. Some of them quite obviously cannot be filled. I can't satisfy my desire to have sex with a man--it would be adultery, plain and simple, and it would be a betrayal of Sarah and of my commitment to her, and it's simply out of the question.
On the other hand, one of those voids seems to be a need to connect with men on an emotional level that differs from how I connect with Sarah, and though there may be a few who would argue otherwise, I feel (and I think that most agree) that healthy platonic relationships with men--perhaps slightly deeper than friendship, but still not romantic in nature--can fill this void. These relationships are probably not a perfect substitute for being in love, but they'll sustain me (just as a diet of tofu would keep me alive, even if it didn't satisfy my appreciation of a good steak).
The fulfillment of other needs is less obviously right or wrong, and cuddling--as the fulfillment of a need for both physical and emotional closeness--might fall into that gray area.
I wouldn't consider cuddling an option at all if Sarah was opposed to--or uncomfortable with--the idea. It's certainly not something I would do behind her back or without her knowledge. In some of our frequent discussions about our relationship and our boundaries and expectations, we have talked about cuddling and about when she might be open to the idea and when she might not be. She has indicated that in certain circumstances--such as when we have friends over to watch a movie--she might not be opposed to me snuggling on the couch with a friend to watch the show. If I'm any good at reading her tone and body language, I'd say that her level of comfort with the idea is around 90-95%.
In fact, a part of her actually wants me to be able to have that experience, as she has remarked more than once that it makes her a bit sad to see me sitting alone on a chair when three or four of our friends are nestled together on the couch.
With Sarah's approval, then, the only people left to worry about are the potential cuddle-ees... and myself.
Finding someone to cuddle with might be an issue. Several times when our friends have been together on the couch one of them has said to me (mostly in jest) "Do you want to come join us?", to which another in the group always immediately responds "Sarah wouldn't like that!". All of our friends absolutely adore Sarah, and none of them would be comfortable doing anything that they thought would hurt her or constitute a betrayal of her trust or friendship.
Even if that weren't an issue, many guys are reluctant (with good reason) to get involved in any intimate way with a married man.
And of course I would be concerned that at least some guys would be unwilling or unable to keep a cuddling experience completely casual and completely platonic. Based on some of the comments on yesterday's post and on other feedback I've gotten as I've discussed cuddling with friends I've gathered that for some people cuddling is an intensely intimate experience that may not be appropriate between friends. (On the other hand, I've also gathered that some people are perfectly capable of cuddling casually--it would simply be a matter of finding the right people).
With Sarah on board and a willing individual (or multiple individuals) who has no problems with casual and platonic cuddling, I should be good to go, right?
Except that I still haven't figured out where I stand on the issue, exactly. I want the experience, for sure, but of course I'm well aware that we shouldn't always get everything we want.
I've been advised that cuddling is too emotionally intimate, and that cuddling with a man will necessarily distance me emotionally from Sarah, thereby weakening our marriage. I'm not sure that I believe this, as I tend to believe that love (along with other emotions) does not need to be drawn from a limited supply. Making an emotional investment in one individual does not necessarily need to deplete the amount of emotion that we have available to invest in other relationships that are important to us. I believe that as long as Sarah remains important to me (and I believe that she always will) I will always remain emotionally committed to her.
I've been advised that the sexual/erotic component of snuggling is powerful, and that either (1) it will be difficult to resist the urge to move beyond cuddling to less appropriate behaviors or (2) the cuddling itself is inappropriate (for a married man), due to its pseudo-erotic nature. I believe that as long as I always ensure that I'm never cuddling alone with another guy (i.e. that Sarah and/or one or more of our other friends is always present) I can greatly minimize the risk of (1)--and I believe that I have sufficient control over my own passions that the risk is not inordinately high in the first place. I believe that I've covered (2) in yesterday's post (and comments)--as long as I'm not cuddling with the intention of deriving erotic stimulation or pleasure from the experience, I don't consider the experience an erotic one--even if I do get aroused by it.
So... if I have a comeback for all of the arguments that have been presented against cuddling, why am I still a bit wary of the whole idea? Some might argue that this is because it's simply the wrong thing to do, and that the Spirit (or my conscience, or whatever) is trying to keep me from making a mistake. I won't completely discount the possibility, but the reticence doesn't feel like the spiritual warnings I've received in the past.
Instead, it feels more like the social awkwardness that's always been a part of my life... Is it possible that I'm a bit weirded out by the idea of cuddling simply because I'm a bit embarrassed to ask someone to cuddle with me and/or to follow up on that request?
At some point in the last year I stumbled across the website of an organization that organizes Cuddle Parties. These are organized events, moderated by a "facilitator", at which participants (usually in pajamas) spend the duration of the party exploring the phenomenon of human touch to the extent that they are comfortable with. A person never cuddles or touches another person without first asking permission to do so, and "Cuddle Lifeguards" are careful to monitor the event to ensure that sexual energies never get out of hand.
The idea intrigued me, and though there aren't any "official" Cuddle Parties in Utah, the idea of cuddling as a way of connecting with other people and receiving all of the emotional and physical benefits that human contact can provide is very appealing to me. Even more appealing is the idea of cuddling with guys and receiving some satisfaction of needs that would otherwise go unfulfilled in a gay married man who is remaining faithful to his wife.
So... The floor is yours. Please weigh in with your own experiences, opinions, beliefs and critiques of my thoughts.
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37 comments:
I just wanted to throw in a comment that everything Scott has indicated in this post about things we have talked about and things I have said are accurate, including the part that I am not 100% comfortable, but mostly comfortable with the idea, especially if I could be included in the cuddling. :)
So, bring on your comments, and tell us what you REALLY think we are getting ourselves into! :D
Well, I'd be happy to cuddle with you guys--you're both awesome!
I want to see you be able to cuddle... but I do worry that it will weaken your interest in Sarah... I crave cuddling way more than I did before, now that I've had it.
Hidden was the first person I ever let get close to me- and it still took a long time to get to actual cuddling- and I know this was a large part of falling in love with him. So I can see the dangers in cuddling- usually it wasn't sexual, but it was strongly emotional and physical.
But, Hidden is the first and only person I've ever cuddled with. You have had much more physical contact with your wife then you will ever have cuddling with other gay guys, my cuddling with Hidden that helped me fall so deeply for him and attach myself too much, is the most physical contact I've ever had with a boy.
So, my thought is that the danger in cuddling comes from secluded intimacy, I don't think there is danger if you have more physical contact with your wife than you have cuddling and if you cuddle with various people, so you don't get too close to any one person (as I have).
In theory, I agree with you completely, but in practice it's awkward. Mostly that's just because I'm not a naturally cuddly kind of person, much as I enjoy and crave it, so there's no way for me to approach such a scenario without feeling like it's forced and weird.
...
I actually have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but they're all going in different directions, so I'll leave it at this for now: The situation is inherently problematic for a lot of reasons, but that doesn't necessarily mean I think it's a bad idea.
I think Sarah just wants a three-way cuddle with Brad Pitt. :D
And really, who doesn't?
Max, you got that right! ;)
I just want to throw this out there - even though it has nothing to do with the topic....
So, there are two people in the MoHo blogosphere that go by Hidden. I happen to be Hidden In The Light, not just hidden. And I have not cuddled with Over The Rainbow....at least, not to my knowledge :) I was a little surprised when someone had said they had cuddled with me and I didn't know who they were!
Anyway, I just wanted to say that. That's it.
Have you considered JIM weekends? ;-)
I know some people practice "holding", but it's much more structured and "safe" than regular old "cuddling", which I think is pretty iffy for married guys for the most part.
In short, good questions. :-)
Scott,
I love how you framed this discussion and I hope you receive some really good feedback.
I would like to form a closer platonic relationship with a long time friend so I'm hoping you get really good advice I can use.
One thing you have going for you is Sarah and that the two of you are working through this openly and honestly together.
Regards,
Philip
Since first discussing this with 'hidden in the light' I've realized how personal of a decision this is. Some people are able to cuddle and be completely okay, but I feel so emotionally empty at times I convince myself that I NEED that contact to be complete because it is pleasurable. Naturally those feelings progress and become more sexual and I want to take things further. So I'm not sure that everyone should stop, that's not my place to say but I realize now what I'm doing when I cuddle.
I like the 3-way idea. Why don't you and Sarah and some guy that you both think is hot cuddle together? That way she's not left out. Also, if you have more than one cuddle buddy there's less of a chance of serious infatuation complicating the situation. Cuddle with straight guys and gay guys to balance it out.
Hi. My name is Hidden.
The first, the last, the original :P
I have cuddled with OTR, and many others. I don't think it's evil, I don't think it's wrong... it can get there, but if you are discriminate in what you do, and how you do it, then it's fine.
And I think H.I.T.L. should change his name, but that's just because I'm biased XD
I agree with Mr. Fob. I want more physical contact with other guys, but I'm just awkward at it. It feels forced. Maybe I just haven't had the luck to be friends with any guys who are more physical. I just settle for the occasional handshake and ever more rare hug--which it's always me who initiates.
Cuddling is wonderful. I love to cuddle. I can do it platonically and romantically. I am very touchy-feely, so I'm open to cuddle with most anyone.
But, as I've recently discovered... not a great idea if, in a MOM, the spouse is not completely comfortable with the idea.
Though I can't quite put my finger on it, I think there is something not quite right with two guys sexually wired to be attracted to each other, combining with a wife in a three-way cuddle-fest. Somehow, the odds are stacked against her.
Some will argue that you "own" your sexuality and you can do what you want that feels good and right about it (even in a platonic nature), but she "owns" your commitment and fidelity. How do you cross all these t's and dot all these i's to be sure it all works...
by the time you do all that, the spontaneity of the moment is gone, lost and what is left is a calculated experimentation that has nothing to do with the joy of cuddling.
I'm not going to comment on the morality of cuddling one way or the other, but I am going to comment on the idea of having emotional and physical needs of being with a guy. I may not have been married as long as you, but it seems like I have been processing this "I am gay" thing longer than you have. I have found that my needs have been met the most by developing real friendship with other males--the kind with the typical three-pat hug, a handshake, and a wrestle here and there. You know the kind that two straight men have.
I haven't found cuddling or other sexual things with men to be anywhere near as fulfilling as a good natured brotherly friendship--which are completely in line with gospel standards.
Scott,
What I'd like to know is how does one talk themselves down so they can feel closer to someone without getting overly excited.
I do the handshake and brotherly hug thing with my best friend and that's just not satisfying.
But then we're always in a public place where two men showing any more affection than that might encounter some kind of negative reaction from others.
We use to meet in gay bars but I hate bars and bars are about it as far as gay establishments go in Phoenix.
I arranged recently for us to be alone together but found it impossible to calm down long enough to relate to him in any way but sexual.
This was not totally unexpected since that is usually the way I react when I am alone with another gay man but I had thought this time would be different since it's been years and I had gone months feeling basically asexual.
So it seems to be all or nothing with me. I either feel next to nothing or way too much.
By the way, I am trying to form friendships with straight men to see how that works but I don't make friends easily so it may be a long while before I have such a friendship.
I am also hoping to hear what others have learned from their experiences.
Regards,
Philip
Thanks so much for all of the comments! I hoped that I would receive a bit of input, but wow. :)
@Ezra, I know how much concern you have for me and for Sarah and I together, and it means so much to me. Thanks for sharing your experiences in your comments on the last post and for your point of view here. Would cuddling "weaken [my] interest in Sarah"? I'm not sure... We've already established that my interest in her is built primarily on things other that physical attraction, and that I love her in many ways that have nothing to do with physical intimacy. Would those bonds weaken if I indulged in some cuddling? I tend to think not, but I admit that it would be an experiment in the unknown.
@OTR: I hadn't thought of that... You're suggesting that as long as Sarah gets a lot more cuddle time than any other single individual gets, there might not be any danger of wandering affections or interest? Something to consider for sure.
@Fob: I used to think that I wasn't a physical person, but I'm discovering that I really do enjoy and even crave human contact. My first few hugs were very awkward (and I'm still often a little unsure about whether to initiate a hug or not with someone I'm not already on a hugging basis with), but I've gotten a lot more comfortable with the experience. I'd like it to become even more natural. Practice makes perfect? :)
@Max: To be completely honest, I'm not sure physical appearance would really be an issue if I was choosing a cuddle buddy. That said, I wouldn't turn Brad Pitt away if he offered. :D
@UTMOHO: Thanks for the advice. If this cuddling thing every becomes a reality, it would only be with friends who understand that it can never be other than innocent and friendly, and I expect that it would only be in my home with Sarah and/or the kids around, which would tend to put a damper on any potential to cross the line.
@hiddeninthelight: Hidden has expressed his own concern that people might confuse him for you. :) I'm glad that I can call you both friends.
@Original Mohomie: I don't know a lot about JIM (they're sworn not to discuss it, after all), but from what I do know, I don't think it's something I'm interested in. :) re: "holding" vs. "cuddling"... It may be that what I'm thinking of when I say "cuddling" is actually more akin to what you think of as "holding"? I'd actually be interested to have you explain what the two terms mean to you, and how they differ?
@CJ: I completely agree that "to cuddle or not to cuddle" should be a personal decision, based on what each person knows about how he will react to the experience. I'm glad that you've been able to figure out for yourself what is appropriate and where your boundaries are.
@MoHoHawaii: I like all of your suggestions (3-way, multiple cuddle-buddies), except for the last one... I'm not sure I know any straight guys... or at least not any who wouldn't completely freak out if I suggested that we cuddle. :)
@Hidden who is not hiddeninthelight: How come you never come in the living room and watch TV with us at night? You could be our first 3-way! [cuddle, that is] ;D (For those who don't know, Hidden lives in our basement at the moment).
@Crisco: I'll repeat what I said to Mr. Fob: I've found that I've gotten more comfortable with physical contact the more I've actually experienced it. There may be a question of how comfortable you actually want to get with it, but if it's something you desire, I suggest pushing through the discomfort and awkwardness and hugging whenever you get the chance. I've become a firm believer in hugs. :)
@Beck: You say this isn't a good idea if "the spouse is not completely comfortable with the idea"... Does 95% comfortable count as "not completely comfortable"? I'm not sure that I agree that making it a "calculated experiement" would take all of the joy out of the experience... At the risk of providing too much information, Sarah and I have had times in our marriage when--due to the demands of work and children--our sex life has been anything but spontaneous, but that doesn't mean that we haven't still enjoyed each other's company. Besides, I think that we could lay down some ground rules with a known short list of friends who we are comfortable with (and who are comfortable with us, of course), and still allow for some spontanaiety as opportunities arise.
@Bran, I appreciate your viewpoint. I hope that my paragraph about marriage (in the post) didn't come across as
condescending. I didn't mean to imply that I'm an expert in any of this by any means. And it's true that as far as
out-of-the-closet-self-aware gay guys go I'm a relative newbie. It does seem like you're sort of making a judgment call on the "morality" of cuddling when you say that other types of male bonding "are completely in line with gospel standards". That seems to imply that you believe cuddling might not be? At any rate, I do appreciate your input and perspective.
@Philip: I'm not sure if you're asking me or if you're asking a general question to my readers, but I'll try and give you my thoughts on your question...
As I understand it, you're wondering how to remove the sexual tension from a private encounter with a friend, so that it can become something casual and platonic?
I don't know if I know how to turn off the sex drive, but I do know that focusing on it isn't the way to do it. If I get aroused and then focus on that fact and make it the center of my attention, it's not going to go away. But if I simply see it as a natural (though perhaps inconvenient) reaction to the situation, and one that doesn't require any attention or response (see previous post), more often than not my body will get the message and it will calm down.
Of course, this wouldn't work if the person I was with was doing or saying things intended to maintain a state of arousal. But if both of you are intent on nothing but casual, friendly, platonic interaction, and both of you are committed to keeping things on that level, then hopefully by keeping your attention away from places it shouldn't go you can keep your behavior where you want it as well.
That's the best I can offer. Perhaps others can chime in?
It seems to me in an LDS blog there is something obvious that pertains to this post and the previous one that no one has mentioned. Our Church was founded by Joseph Smith. Brigham Young led it after Joseph for more than three decades. They were polygamous.
Scott, you may find a way to carefully manuever into a cuddling situation which Sarah will approve of, or in which she may join with you. I know quite a bit about this territory because I have a wife like Sarah. And we have been down the cuddling road you are contemplating. But I predict that eventually you will both have to deal with jealousy, no matter how you lay out your plan.
If God approved of what Joseph and Brigham did and if our current apostles who expect to have two wives in eternity are not totally misguided, then they and their wives have already or will have to learn in eternity to conquer jealousy.
Ultimately, I feel that is the real solution to finding the appropriate cuddling and other intimacy you desire here. You are a man who is attracted to both genders and have the potential to love men and women. It is really very little different from those who find they wish to love more than one of the same gender.
Sometime in the future, and hopefully sooner rather than later, Sarah will decide she can let you love someone else, and you both can still be in love.
Your desire to find a way to experience physical intimacy or even limited physical expression with a man, in addition to what you have with Sarah, is something most of us here understand and is something I hope you can experience in rich measure in your life.
If we can learn from our own Church traditions, you will have this, and Sarah may also find she can keep her love for you and look beyond what she has with you. If she can let you be free and you are appropriately safe in what you do, she too can open her heart to other experiences which may become available to her. In that case, you will both have to deal with jealousy, which Joseph and Brigham never did, but which I believe in eternity they will.
@Anonymous: Thank you for your perspective. I'm intrigued by some of the things you've said, and I'd be very interested in asking you some questions. If you're comfortable doing so, please email me at the address in my Blogger profile.
If you are unable to do so, I understand, and appreciate the input you were able to offer here.
Whether or not cuddling is in line, other forms of male bonding definitely are. I promise, I'm really not judging cuddling; I'm just trying to get at the deeper root of the "need" that you talk about.
In my experience, it is the relationship (the friendship that we are seeking so desperately). Would cuddling or sex or whatever be fulfilling without a deep relationship along with it? It's the relationship underneath the cuddling that fulfills you and brings you life.
Basically, I'm just saying that I don't foresee a few cuddle sessions fulfilling these needs that you talk about.
I understand your position Scott. I'm another facet of the issue. Aaron and I have been together for four years this August. I have as much male-male contact as I like. Aaron is a touchable person. It is fulfilling and incredible.
However, Aaron is not a cuddler. (You'd never guess it from his appearance.) He only "allows" me to cuddle him when he's falling asleep. It rapidly becomes a one-way cuddle. I love to cuddle!
Now I know my friends are good cuddlers. I put off what we call a "Don't touch me vibe". So they don't really touch me much. I am working on eliminating that vibe. It wouldn't bother Aaron or I to see the other cuddle.
The reason I share all this is to strike a comparison. You and I would both enjoy cuddles outside of respective relationships. We both have ample opportunities too. However, I'm used to male touch. Casual male touch is rarely arousing to me. I have plenty of it.
However, you are not used to it. It may have more effect on you. I completely believe in your personal morals and strength. "More effect" does not mean too much effect. Do what you feel is right. The only way to be used to male-male casual cuddling is to do it.
Scott, I'm going to take a bit of a different position on this one. I'm not sure if it's going to make sense or not, but I'll give it a go.
When I look back at my life, I see a lot of great, close hetero male friendships that I had. I think that the whole male bonding idea spoken of in some of the comments here was met through those relationships. However, in spite of having male bonding needs met, I still craved touch (cuddling and such).
In light of my own view/experience with it, I personally would say that cuddling is much more of a sexual thing than a male bonding thing. I think that cuddling with a guy is not fulfilling an emotional, male bonding need, so much as fulfilling a sexual need.
At that, I would say that cuddling with a third party while married for a guy in a M.O.M. is really not that much different than a guy in a hetero marriage cuddling with another woman.
As a secondary comment, on the subject of how to not, um, have too much going on downstairs while cuddling is going on, is to ... how do I put this ... relieve yourself shortly before the cuddle session. That way the little guy is all tuckered out and less apt to want to see what's going on. ;)
As a married woman with a bi husband whose husband has had gay relationships prior to our marriage I'd like to weigh in here if that's okay.
I talked with my husband about this and his initial reaction was "NO WAY." I agree that my initial reaction is the same. We're older, maybe more experienced and I'd say you are on a VERY slippery slope here.
First, if you had a party with straight women at your house and the straight women were inviting your husband to cuddle on the couch would that be okay? Not in my house I can assure you. Neither would it be okay with my husband if the situation was reversed.
Integrity does not get lost all at once. It is chipped away. Marrige vows do not become comprimised all at once. They get chipped away. Most of our wrong turns in life start with a slight bend in the wrong direction.
While this may seem initially innocent and I'm sure would be initial innocent it opens the door. Think about this in terms of sexuality with teenagers right? My 14 year old daughter as of yet has not kissed a boy. She does have a boyfriend but we discuss this a lot. I know she would not plan to have sex with this boyfriend. She is a Christian girl, with Christian values at a Christian high school...but, as we know, what starts out as an innocent kiss eventually leads to petting. Then you think, well, okay we'll "pet" but over our clothes. Well, three months later it's so what if I take my bra off? It's still not having "sex"....etc. Now you may think they are teenagers, we're not teenagers, we're adults. But remember, sexual impulses are the strongest impulses we have as HUMANS. It's not about losing control it's about desire. It will increase the desire for more.
I say NO. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO! I'm not a prude. I have had previous marriages (plural) before. I've ended up an adulterer before - not my "intention" but there I was. I'm sure many of these public Christian ministers who have been publicly busted got there the same way. A flirtation. A lunch. A brush of the hands. Trust me please....Give this careful and deep consideration.
I'm not judging here. I'm the last person in the world to judge anyone. I have gay friends and have since high school. I have made huge, make that HUGE, mistakes in my life. But, you asked what we really thought so I'm telling you, what I really think is this is a HUGE mistake. There is little to be gained from this. This will not strengthen your marriage and could do irrepairable damage. Is it worth it?
I would not consider cuddling with another man acceptable behavior for a married woman. I might want to do it. I have many male friends and we hug, etc. But I would not be entwined with them on the sofa watching a movie. I think even the invitation of such crossed the line a little bit. You are a married couple and as long as you remain so, unless you publicly decide you want an open marriage, you should be respected as such. If a male friend invited me to cuddle with him on the couch in front of my husband my husband would not appreciate it and would feel that our marriage was somewhat disregared by the person doing the inviting.
I would like to echo Scott in thanking all of you for your comments. I was going to comment about my feelings on all of this at this point, especially to address your concerns, Terri, but it has turned into a post on my blog
Thanks. :)
Sorry if I'm a little late in commenting here! I also posted this comment on Sarah's blog.
I have often been told that I was born on the wrong side of the ocean...I love Europe, and I seem to fit in better over there. For instance, I have always not liked ice in my drinks (which is abnormal in America), and when I went to Europe, I found that there, it is *normal* for people to NOT have ice in their drinks. It was so liberating to see "there's a place for us"!
Also, in the time I have spent in Europe, perhaps the the biggest difference I noticed between Europeans and Americans was touchiness. I am a really cuddly person in my family and very touchy in conversation, etc. Generally, Americans don't touch (rugged individuals that we are) and Europeans touch all the time--no big deal. Here again was a cultural difference I found liberating! In America, I rarely, if ever, am able to (casually) touch my friends on the arm or shoulder without them feeling uncomfortable. In Europe, my friends and I could touch each other all the time in conversation (e.g., on the wrists and arms, that sort of thing) and it's so natural. It's apart of conversation as unremarkable as maintaining eye contact.
Maybe that sort of applies here. Americans in general have an aversion to physical contact, and as you said, Mormon culture furthers this aversion by adding an almost paranoid moral dimension. I dunno.
I know that you will make the right decisions for you. Best of luck!
I see a lot of comments and I don't have the time or energy to read them all. :( But I do see some serious problems with extra-marital cuddling. I may be one of of those (fairly) recently-married gay guys, but my stance is still the same, and I think valid.
First, marriage is a commitment, and the same rules apply to a mixed-orientation marriage than to any other. There is no special qualifiers in fidelity that make us above the rules (nor should there be special rules for a gay marriage, for that matter.) A straight married man should not cuddle with another woman. Just because us gay men have desires to be with men does not make a physical relationship, including cuddling, necessary or helpful to a marriage.
Marriage is a giving of our ENTIRE selves to our partner. No reservations. We are commanded to love our spouse with all our heart, might, mind and strength. Being gay makes it rather challenging to do all the time, but that's the deal. Sharing any physical intimacy with another is not consistent with that promise.
Secondly, marriage is a sacrifice. It is probably the hardest sacrifice to make, besides the life-long sacrifice to live the gospel and follow Christ. Making the sacrifice of complete physical fidelity will strengthen the bond between the spouse and ultimately lead to the promised blessings of a Celestial marriage.
Friendship with (gay) men has been a rewarding experience for my wife and I. But crossing the line to physical intimacy, cuddling, or too much emotional involvement is, in my opinion, unwise, and can fragment a marriage. Becky is everything to me, and even though it is not always easy, I want to be able to give her my whole self. The sacrifices we both make have made our marriage sweeter.
I know you're still deciding where you stand, and it's an interesting question. Where is the line crossed? When is too much emotional or physical involvement too much? 5 seconds of a hug? 10 seconds? A snuggle on a couch during a movie? Whatever it is, I think we know when we are crossing that line. Seeking physical or emotional needs from another when we ought to find it in our spouse isn't healthy for a relationship.
Sorry, I don't mean to sound too critical here, but I think that this is the sort of step that leads to serious problems for a marriage relationship later on; in my humble opinion of course. Even though Sarah seems okay with it (and I believe her) I think it would be hard not to become resentful when you are being fulfilled through cuddling with someone else.
Thanks for the exciting and controversial posts! You certainly know how to spice up the Moho blogosphere.
I don't know quite how to say what I want to say so I'll tell a story that will hopefully convey what I'm trying to say...
Based on my experience, I use to believe there was no such thing as a happy long-term MOM.
By that time I had probably met hundreds of gay husbands and their wives.
Then I met a couple that seemed genuinely happy but knowing this couple did nothing to change my mind.
I wasn't alone with this attitude.
This couple frequented many of the same message boards I belonged to.
A lot people on the message boards criticized and dismissed what this couple had to say because what this couple said definitely would not work for them or for the vast majority of couples.
The couple agreed their way didn't work for the vast majority and they agreed most couples couldn't or shouldn't do what they did.
But they also felt what they did should not be dismissed or diminished or trashed because it DID work for a few, albeit very few.
But the people criticizing this couple dismissed that as well and continued criticizing.
I was not one of the critics but it took me a long time before I became convinced this couple was truly happy.
What am I trying to say?
Lots of things. I'll mention a few.
Just because something wouldn't work for most doesn't mean it has no value and is not worth considering.
I think it is safe to say this couple's success probably had a lot to do with their ability to articulate their feelings and be open and honest with one another.
What this couple did wasn't easy for them at first but they acknowledged the bumps along the way and adjusted accordingly.
And lastly without a doubt what this couple did would never work for my marriage but that doesn't matter because it worked for their marriage.
Good Luck!
Regards,
Philip
Am I reading this right? That you would be comfortable cuddling with a man on your couch in front of your children? I think it may be a bit unfair to use the children or your wife as sort of a "cuddling police."
Okay... Been out of town and have some catching up to do! A few responses to some of the recent comments:
@Bran: I completely agree that the physical aspect of a relationship is not what really matters most, and that it's not even the physical interaction that's at the root of what I'm looking for. A cuddle with a stranger would be empty.
But with those I have already developed a deep friendship and fulfilling friendship with, the physical interaction (might) offer a chance to take that relationship to an even deeper (and more fulfilling) level.
I've already seen this with the several friends who are regulars in our home, who always greet and depart with a hug. That hug means something, and it satisfies something in me, and it strengthens the bond between us. There's absolutely nothing sensual or sexual about it, and I don't believe there has to be anything sexual about cuddling either, but I believe that physical connection can do something that the non-physical interaction (as good and as satisfying as it might be) cannot.
@BigRedHammer: Thanks for your input. I believe you've brought up two points...
You mention the appropriateness of cuddling outside a committed relationship--indicating that you and Aaron would not see it as proper or acceptable. I respect that position and think you agree (and that you even indicated) that every couple needs to come to their own decision as to what is appropriate and what is not. Sarah and I are trying to figure that one out for ourselves.
You also indicate that cuddling might provoke a stronger sexual response in me than it would in someone who is used to male touch. I agree, and I've already touched on this in the post before this one. I fully expect that I would get aroused by a cuddle with a guy. But I also don't believe that I need to pay any attention to an erection, so I don't believe this would be an issue.
@Max: I'm not sure that I agree that cuddling is inherently sexual. My kids don't like to cuddle with me, but they cuddle with their Mom all the time, and there's certainly nothing sexual about that--it's entirely a bonding/emotional experience. Adult cuddling with a sexually-compatible partner would obviously be more apt to be a sexual experience, but I'm not sure that it has to be (though, as I indicated to BigRedHammer, I'm sure my body will try to insist that it is).
And, er, thanks for the advice... :)
@tksinclair: Thank you very much for your concern and your input. I promise that I've carefully considered all that you wrote...
But I have to respectfully disagree with a few points, I think.
It's true that the human sexual impulse is strong, but it's also true that we can master it, I think, and I don't believe that it needs to be assumed that A leads to B leads to C. I may be gay, but I still got worked up when Sarah and I made out in high school, and it would have been easy for us to have gone all the way if we had both wanted to, but we controlled ourselves. Our clothes stayed on and our hands never went anywhere they weren't supposed to go.
If I could control my passions as a teenager, when hormones were raging, I firmly believe I can control myself now, twenty years later--even if cuddling with a man proves to be an order of magnitude more arousing than my make-out sessions with Sarah ever were.
I also don't believe that our situation can be directly compared to that of a straight couple. I've intended to blog about this, so I won't spend much time on the subject, but a mixed-orientation marriage has a different dynamic than a straight one (as you are well aware), and every comparison with a straight marriage falls apart somewhere. I'm not saying that all of the rules can be thrown out the window, but I also don't believe that we can automatically assume that every rule that applies to a straight married man can automatically be applied to a gay man who is married to a woman. I believe that the mixed-orientation couples who are most likely to fail are those who try to live by straight-marriage rules, while those who succeed are the ones who think outside the box and attempt to find creative solutions to the unique situation they are in.
Finally, I would like to defend the friends who "invited" me to cuddle. They didn't intend any disrespect to Sarah or to our marriage, and the invitations were made in a light-hearted manner, mostly tongue-in-cheek.
@Frank: Thanks for bringing the European point of view to the discussion. I've wondered before what our culture would be like if this continent had been settled by someone other than the Puritans with their conservative views of sexuality.
@CJ, I appreciate your views on marriage and admire your commitment to your wife. I hope that I've never come across as anything other than 100% committed to Sarah and to our marriage.
I wonder, though, how far we need to take the "exclusivity" of our relationship with our wife? Taken to the extreme, we could sever all physical and emotional interaction with anyone other than our wives in the interest of "commitment" and "sacrifice"--after all, aren't we commanded to "cleave unto her and none else"?
Obviously this would be unhealthy and undesirable, and so we apply the principle of "moderation" and we dedicate ourselves to our wives while at the same time allowing ourselves emotional attachments to family and friends, as well as physical interaction in the form of handshakes, hugs, etc.
If we can do that and still be considered "100% committed" to our wives, at what point is the line crossed? Some things (adultery) are clearly over the line, but in the hazier areas, perhaps each couple needs to decide for themselves what is appropriate and what is not?
@Philip, thanks for the encouragement and support.
@Anonymous: Yes, I would be comfortable with that.
@Everyone: I think that one issue might be that some of us have different definitions of cuddling than others...
When I speak of cuddling, I'm not talking about wrapping myself around a guy. I'm talking about casual shoulder-to-shoulder and hip-to-hip contact on the couch or in a chair, possibly with an arm around a neck or a head on a shoulder. Nothing overtly sensual or sexual, but simply two (or more) people who are comfortable enough with each other that the idea of "personal space" has evaporated.
Does that make any difference in how anyone feels?
I'm late to the game here, but I have strong opinionson the subject rooted in personal experiences more appropriately shared in a private conversation. Our belief that cuddling and non sexual intimacy with other men was ok nearly destroyed my relationship with the love of my life and did cause us to break up for a short period of time. No matter how innocent our intentions were and no matter how safe things were in therory, this caused a big problem. Extramarital cuddling isn't condusive to a strong, monogamous relationship. Trust the 10 % of your wife that fears this.
/sigh As I think will be a trend with Scott's blog (I only discovered it today) I don't have time to read as much as I want to. So here's a comment even though I haven't gotten to the end of his post. I'm attracted to some things about men, and some things about women. I appreciate the curves of my coworker, but delight even more in her personality. She's like a mother to me, and I relish the hugs and cheek-kisses we share each week. I love her family, and would do nothing to disturb her husband. I think we are perfect cuddle buddies. I think we're both happy with the intimacy level where it's at, and wouldn't push it. I have one other friend I think would be a good match, but I haven't seen her in-person since high school, so I can only imagine. I hope you find someone just right for you and Sarah (and I mean that in a platonic, not open-marriage way).
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